Talk:Farming

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Speed-Gro and Agriculturist

Do these two stack with each other?--Enkidu (talk) 02:31, 17 October 2016 (BST)

Also, how do these round? If a plant takes 4 days to grow and you have Agriculturist, would it round down to three days or up to four?--Enkidu (talk) 02:06, 18 October 2016 (BST)

Experience Points

What does this formula "XP=||ln(0.018*PRICE + 1)||" given in the article mean? In particular, the pair of double vertical bars appears to be a notation I'm not familiar with, probably a computer adaptation of what mathematicians use? The logarithm calculates to 0.48858 for regular parsnips (at PRICE=35), but what kind of operation gets you from there to 8 experience points? Butterbur (talk) 03:34, 23 April 2017 (BST)

Double pipes are the mathematical notation for "round to nearest integer." There was an error in the calculation, though (specifically, the ln is multiplied by 16), which I've corrected. margotbean (talk) 04:45, 23 April 2017 (BST)
Thanks once again, Margotbean. I knew something was missing! "Round to nearest integer?" A new notation to me. I've been around for most of the history of computers, and learned my math before they were common. But this looks like something derived from computer code, though I don't remember seeing it in Fortran. Asterisk, meaning multiplication, is another such code, and not the only one. It just goes to show - there's always something new to learn. Butterbur (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2017 (BST)
It's amazing what you can learn while browsing tables of html/unicode symbols to use in webpages. lol
On a side note, you deserve a medal for programming in Fortran. A huge solid gold medal encrusted with diamonds. margotbean (talk) 19:27, 23 April 2017 (BST)

Buffing Farming

From what I have found out (mostly from Reddit) is that eating a food that buffs farming before harvesting crops has a negligible effect on the quality of the crops harvested. It seems as though the quality of the crops may be predetermined before harvesting. A theory that popped into my head (it's a long shot) is that perhaps the quality of the crops is RNG'd at the time you go to bed/wake up, if that is the case perhaps eating a food that buffs farming before bed would increase the quality of the crops. Even if this theory is incorrect, perhaps there is some way to use food to increase crop quality. It seems silly that CA would have put in farm buffs just for a very slight inrease in farm tool efficiency. Thanks to information added recently by DjinnFor eating a Farmer's Lunch with level 10 Farming 9not using fertilizer) would result in chances of 27% Gold, 39.42% Silver and 33.58% Normal. This would represent a significant increase in quality over unbuffed, if it is somehow possible. XaqNautilus (talk) 00:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Crop quality formula unclear

The formula described in Farming#Quality Crop Frequency only applies to crops planted without fertilizer. Therefore it seems unclear to then include tables on crop qualities with the use of fertilizer below it too, it seems like that formula would also apply to those tables.

Perhaps instead only the table for 'Normal soil' should be included? Or otherwise the text describing the formula amended to reflect the fact it only applies to crops grown without fertilizer. Awiseoldman (talk) 15:52, 19 May 2018 (BST)

XP from farmed foragables?

The Farming page claims that harvesting foragable plants grown on the farm gives 3 foraging XP, but the Foraging page claims that foragables always award 7 XP, no matter if they're found or grown. Which one of these is correct? Dokuru (talk) 09:18, 20 August 2018 (BST)

Good question! In Crop::harvest, the player is given 3XP for harvesting forageable plants. I'll fix the page. margotbean (talk) 14:43, 20 August 2018 (BST)
Ok. But are the experience points credited to the Farming skills, or to the Foraging skills? The Farming page says "foraging skill points", but the Foraging page doesn't say. Until now, that is. Butterbur (talk) 06:27, 21 August 2018 (BST)
Thanks for the fix, Butterbur! It is foraging XP for harvesting foraged plants. margotbean (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2018 (BST)

Crop quality not calculated correctly on multi produce crops?

I noticed that while I should have around 41% gold quality produce, I got only 19% for some reason. Even with an additional 2 levels in farming (12 total) it only became 24%. This is only a tiny test pool but I had 108 cranberry bushes, of which I got 229 produce, of these the numbers were (normal/silver/gold): 139/46/44 (61%/20%/19%) without food and 136/39/54 (59%/17%/24%) with food.

However, since there were 108 bushes, it seems logical that the quality bonus is only calculated on the first produce of a multi produce crop. Does anyone else have any other information about this? As it is not written down on the Farming page itself (it does say experience is only calculated on the first produce, this might be similar?). Oniguro (talk) 10:30, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Basic & Quality fertilizer affect only the first berry harvested. It says that on the Coffee Bean, Cranberries, Blueberry, and Crops pages, but not on the Farming or Fertilizer pages. I'll correct that today. margotbean (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Rewrite of Intro

I looked at the opening to this page and decided to rewrite it because I felt it lacked a lot of crucial basic information, it almost completely ignored the ranching aspect of farming, and it was generally rather awkwardly ordered. One More Day (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I took a look at your edits and realized the intro needed a trim rather than elaboration -- the focus should be on the skill and not a repeat of what's on the Crops and Animals pages. margotbean (talk) 18:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Really? Then why is the article called "Farming"? Like One More Day, I would find the title suggests the activity and all it entails, not just the skill. I suggest that as it is, the article would be more correctly called "Farming Skill". I think the fluidity of information that has passed to and from this article over time, and indeed the other such articles (Foraging, Mining, etc), is due to the title names and their interpretation. Farming is more than the skill. The skill may well need its own article. Crops and Animals are specific topics under Farming also, each big enough for an article too. But there should be a place for the comprehensive view, and the title of that place would have to be "Farming". I'm not arguing for overlap of information. Perspective should be maintained at the appropriate level, and direction into specifics given as needed. Butterbur (talk) 07:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Crop Quality Determination: Timing

"Quality is determined when the crop is harvested, and not when it is planted." Is this determined when the crop is first attempted to be harvested? Suppose one has a full inventory including a gold pumpkin; only gold pumpkins can be harvested, others will obstinately stay in the ground. Can one use this fact to then eat a Farmer's Lunch (or wait to the next day) to have a second chance at getting gold items after making a first pass through the field, or is the quality fully determined at the first attempt? JabberwockySR (talk) 13:31, 7 April 2019 (BST)

In-game testing shows that you can wait until the next day, and quality will be reset, so it is not determined at first attempt. Eating a Farmer's Lunch the same day has no effect.
In looking at the code, it's not immediately apparent to me how the game keeps track of a particular day's harvest -- it appears that all crops ought to work like Spring Onions, in that repeated attempts at harvest ought to produce gold items if inventory is full, save one gold item. But that's not the way it works, so... some other code-diver will have to shed light! margotbean (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2019 (BST)

Crop quality probabilities

The full explanation given currently is incorrect, and either one of two scenarios is the real case here. Either a) the probability of normal quality is the joint probability P(normal) = P(not silver|not gold) because the game's silver quality check predicates on a failed gold quality check as described. Or, b) the game doesn't actually perform two separate checks on gold and silver and the two events are mutually independent, and thus the given explanation of P(normal) = 1 - P(silver) - P(gold) is correct. How was the given quantity for silver probability determined for this article in the first place? From the in-game code? Margotbean, your explanation for the revert of my edit needs more details. If we're going to judge probabilities from empirical testing, then I will only accept a chi-square test for differences between expected and observed proportions with a large sample size. That's the only way to reach a robust conclusion unless we have access to source code.Farmonymous (talk) 05:28, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Here is the code for crop quality (Crop::Harvest):
       switch ((int) ((NetFieldBase<int, NetInt>) soil.fertilizer))
       {
         case 368: //Basic
           num3 = 1;
           break;
         case 369: //Quality
           num3 = 2;
           break;
       }
       double num4 = 0.2 * ((double) Game1.player.FarmingLevel / 10.0) + 0.2 * (double) num3 * (((double) Game1.player.FarmingLevel + 2.0) / 12.0) + 0.01;
       double num5 = Math.Min(0.75, num4 * 2.0);
       if (random.NextDouble() < num4)
         num2 = 2;
       else if (random.NextDouble() < num5)
         num2 = 1;
There are 2 independent checks. First Gold is checked, if that fails silver is checked, if that fails the quality is basic. BlaDe (talk) 09:37, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Adding additional useful columns to the XP tables

So, I might as well check since it's been decided that forcing people to spam minor edits is a great way to prevent vandalism, but does anyone have any reason why I shouldn't (once I can) go ahead and add a few columns to each of the XP tables, so they can be sorted by actually useful statistics like XP per day and XP per gold spent on seeds? In addition to the current Crop and XP columns, my current draft has Growth Days, XP/Day, Seed Cost (based on the lowest reliable value), and XP/Gold. The additions could be dropped to just XP/Day and XP/Gold, but since the other numbers are used in the calculation, it feels like it makes the most sense to include them, not least of which for ease of error correction. (I.e., it's a lot easier to spot an incorrect XP/day or XP/gold when the incorrect Growth Days or Seed Cost value is up front instead of implicitly hidden in the formula.) Eponymous (talk) 03:13, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Changing a simple XP table to 3 pages of data is no small change. You can disagree, but the sarcasm is inappropriate.
As for the specific data: The proposed tables are lacking the calculations used to arrive at XP/Gold and XP/Day. Once those are explicitly stated, the info would be appropriate for a separate page, with a link on the main page. margotbean (talk) 05:20, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Tiller Price Bonuses

This page seems the right place to talk about Tiller bonuses. Previous related discussions can be found at (most recently) Talk:Flowers#Tiller for Foraged Flowers and Talk:Foraging#Foraging Experience from Harvesting a Crop From Wild Seeds, and years earlier at Talk:Grape#Tiller Bonus. Nebulous Maestress also neatly identified the current related bug in the Gatherer Profession (Talk:Foraging#Gatherer Bug), and overlapping mentions involving skills experience have identified bugs that seem to have been fixed over the years, both in code and wiki. I think Foraging and foraging skills belongs on Talk:Foraging, and should be continued there. Likewise, Farming and farming skills belong here, so I take up the Tiller bonus questions here and now.

While Nebulous Maestress has covered some aspects of these questions, I remember a series of questions I had even years ago, which I thought I had documented on the wiki. But perhaps they were too intermixed with earlier problems for me to articulate then. However, I know the wiki is still somewhat incorrect, and I still do not know completely just how. I remember the isSpawnedObject flag in saved files, and found it neither explained nor solved all difficulties. Details are still in question.

I know there are difficulties because of the price I get when shipping certain items. First noticed with Grapes, which can be either foraged or cropped, the notice moved on to items grown from wild seeds. What I didn't really consider earlier was the impact of the Flowers and Fruits categories, which I thought only applied to gifting. Not so, as we have seen. Both the Farming and the Flowers articles now have text that claims the Tiller profession applies to all flowers. Farming also states that it applies to all vegetables, and to all fruits that have not been foraged (like grapes).

I just did a simple test on v1.4.5 (PC, Steam, Windows 10) to see: I shipped a Daffodil (which is not a flower), two Sweet Peas, and a Crocus. As expected, the Daffodil did not receive the Tiller price bonus, and the Crocus did. However, the Sweet Peas did not, contrary to wiki. Why?

I think the answer lies somewhere in what I observed years ago with grapes, and which doesn't seem to have changed in at least three years. Namely, if a grape was foraged (picked up as one does in foraging), it doesn't get Tiller, and if it was grown and harvested on the farm, it does get Tiller. How the code tells the difference I'm unsure, but I do know isSpawnedObject is not enough to tell.

First, the crocuses (some of them) were grown from Winter Seeds, like crops, and the game thus treats them like crops and gives them the Tiller bonus: expected. However, in this game I have never grown any Summer Seeds, so the sweet peas were foraged on the town maps. The game has treated them as any other foraged items that do not get Tiller.

I haven't bothered to check my files for the presence of isSpawnedObject. Here's why. If I read Nebulous Maestress's comments right, my sweet peas should be flagged with it, yet the bonus is absent. And my crocuses have the bonus, but probably shouldn't have the flag, for some of those crocuses were grown and others were foraged.

That circumstance comes about through the merging of stacks of items, which occurs when moving one stack between chest and inventory, but both containers have items of the same type. During the move, the game does not distinguish between foraged or cropped items, and all are placed into the same stack instead of its maintaining separate stacks for them (which would be really puzzling in game play, where these things are all hidden). The key is that the resulting single stack must either be flagged or not flagged, so all resulting items are thenceforth treated as spawned or as not spawned, whatever their origin. What I am pretty sure that I remember and have experienced over years is that the flag (or not) of the stack that the items are moved into is the flag (or not) of the entire result. That would also make sense in terms of the norms of assigning values in coding.

So, if this code flag is all the code has got to tell types apart, there is going to be a bug there no matter what. The flag is not sufficient, and the alternatives are not practical. Unless, of course, this isn't considered a bug. And in that case, the wiki text needs fixing. And there might also be mention of the exploit of keeping a cropped item stack around, and when you get a group of foraged items (no Tiller), just move them into the cropped stack, and presto you have all cropped items (with Tiller). As a matter of fact, that's been precisely my game play practice for years.

So I don't have all the details on all the items, but I see no reason or way that either code or save files have yet been probed to the full. I haven't found it worthwhile to explore when I have my simple exploit to give me the best outcome. And unfortunately it gets really messy to try to explain all these hidden factors in text when the articles are really trying to convey information at a whole higher level. The details serve only to confuse there. But not getting the price you expect also confuses. We need good concise overviews, but I'm seeing trees, not the forest - too close to the matter to see clearly. Butterbur (talk) 18:41, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Another little thought: if you take a stack of cropped items and move it into a stack of foraged items, then the whole result is foraged items. Your crops lose their Tiller bonus. Now I call that a bug, when sell value is lost. My exploit (the opposite) is a net gain, which is much more acceptable and can be overlooked. But they are not separable. Butterbur (talk) 19:22, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, there are some undocumented complications with Tiller bonuses. I was about to add the Tiller prices to Blackberry a few days ago -- because in-game I've sold iridium berries for 132g (bear's knowledge+tiller) -- then realized that I wasn't sure why Tiller was happening. Thanks to Butterbur's prompting, I've now done another round of code-digging / in-game testing, and have some enlightenment. Discussing each of the subissues separately:
  • Price Bonus: what is supposed to get the bonus?
    • The code is in Object:getPriceAfterMultipliers, where the key line is:
      if (player.professions.Contains(1) && (base.Category == -75 || base.Category == -80 || (base.Category == -79 && !isSpawnedObject)))
    • Which translates into: if (player has Tiller profession) AND (category=Vegetable OR category=Flowers OR (category=Fruit AND NOT isSpawnedObject)).
    • I directly copied the line of code to make sure I didn't mistype the parentheses -- the isSpawnedObject only affects fruit. There's no extra condition on flowers.
    • Meaning for Sweet Peas, I don't know what would make them lose the bonus.
      • I tested in four save games and every stack I could find got the bonus (mostly tested by selling to Pierre, which is easier than the shipping bin; I did check with shipping bin in one case, and again got the bonus). Most were stored Sweet Peas of unknown source, but I was able to freshly harvest one Sweet Pea and it got the bonus, too.
      • It seems to me that to lose the Tiller bonus they'd have to not be flowers -- did the in-game description still say 'Flower'? How they were harvested isn't necessarily relevant, because isSpawnedObject shouldn't matter.
    • AFAIK Fiddlehead Fern is the only foraged Vegetable, and it gets the bonus. Double-checked again in-game, plus its article/talk page confirm.
  • isSpawnedObject is set on individual items at the time the item is spawned/created. I've tested most of the different ways fruit can be created to confirm what sources do/do not get the flag:
    • Sources that do get the flag, and therefore do not get any Tiller bonus:
      • Typical randomly-spawned forage items get the flag. Codewise happens in GameLocation::dropObject, plus often redundantly set in GameLocation::spawnObjects and various location-specific versions. Confirmed via in-game prices of Cactus Fruit, Coconut, Crystal Fruit, Spice Berries, and Blackberries picked up on the ground (not from a bush).
      • All items grown from wild seeds. Code at Crop::newDay. Confirmed via in-game price of Blackberries grown on the farm. Unknown: wild-seed crops grown in indoor pots may be an exception, if I'm reading the code correctly. Can't test in-game at the moment.
      • Fruit in the Farm Cave via FarmCave::DayUpdate. Confirmed via in-game price of Apricots, Cherries, Pomegranates, Wild Plums, Spice Berries, etc.
        • Salmonberries from the Farm Cave confimed, too -- making it the only source of non-Tiller Salmonberries. But it's hard to detect (without Bear's Knowledge, non-iridium berries are so cheap a 10% bonus doesn't change the price).
    • Sources that do not get the flag, and sell for 10% more:
      • Tree fruit collected from trees. Confirmed with Pomegranates and Apples.
      • Fruit grown from standard seeds (Grape Starter, Cranberry Seeds, etc.). Confirmed with Grapes and Cranberries.
      • Berries from bushes. The code is in Bush::shade, where there's no mention of isSpawnedObject. Plus confirmed in-game -- empty inventory, shook some blackberry bushes, went to Pierre and got 22 gold. (This was with a non-Botanist, non-Bear's Knowledge character). My maxed-out character also has previously-harvested iridium Blackberries and Salmonberries, which sold for 132 and 33g, respectively, so Bear's Knowledge and Tiller combine for ×3.3;
      • Fruit from obscure sources, such as gifts in the mail (confirmed for Coconut), purchased from stores (confirmed for Coconut bought at Oasis). Untested but presumably also applies to purchases from Traveling Cart.
  • Stacking: what happens when you combine isSpawnedObject items with non-flagged items?
    • Special code has been added to Object:addToStack:
      if (IsSpawnedObject && !otherObject.IsSpawnedObject) { IsSpawnedObject = false; }
    • Which means that the only way a stack ends up with isSpawnedObject=true is if both original stacks had the flag set. Any other combination results in the flag being cleared.
    • This is a v1.4 change; see Version History: "Fixed Tiller profession bonus sometimes not applied to combined foraged and grown grape stacks." Pre-v1.4 code does not contain the above lines. The fact that ConcernedApe explicitly made this code tweak tells me that the current behavior is intentional and not a bug. Items are supposed to gain 10% in price when mixed stacks are combined.
    • I've tested in-game to confirm. Luckily, I happen to have a Fall 9 save where I have unharvested base-quality blackberries from all four sources: bushes, crops, wild forage, farm cave. I've harvested in many different orders and visited Pierre to check prices repeatedly. As soon as I shake a bush, the price of my entire inventory stack goes up; harvesting crops/wild forage/cave afterwards never makes the stack price go down. I've also harvested stacks from each source, placed them in different chests, then done every combination of chestA+chestB. Whether I grab bush berries first or second, I get the 10% bonus.
    • Note, though, that the code fix won't retroactively fix stacks combined pre-v1.4.
So in summary. Berries from bushes do get the Tiller bonus, unexpectedly. Combined stacks never lose the Tiller bonus as of v1.4. Leaving Sweet Peas as the remaining big mystery. They can get Tiller bonus; I have no idea what circumstances would make them lose it. Nebulous Maestress (talk) 16:55, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Comment #1 (others to come, I expect, as I look further). I don't remember ever seeing a price difference between Pierre and the shipping bin. In my experience, Sweet Peas always get the Tiller bonus (if you have the Tiller profession). My initial statement that they didn't was in error, and I know now what made it appear to me that they didn't. But they do. Yet it was Grapes that led me to most everything, and those still appear to me to behave as I have said. Butterbur (talk) 04:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Comment #2. RE Fiddlehead Fern. I always track sales with my spreadsheet (several motivations, including finding stuff to report here). It's been unchanged in over two years, except for the game changes affecting price. In all that time, it calculates sell price with Tiller whenever I have that profession, and I don't think I've ever seen a discrepancy. In other words, I always get the bonus with FF. But, different strokes for different objects, though this always seemed strange. But I've always tried to mimic the game, to get sales returns to be predictive. (Helps in planning what and when to sell.) Butterbur (talk) 05:03, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Comment #3: Confirmed Salmonberries and Blackberries get Tiller (at Pierre's). My spreadsheet did not have that, which confirmed my memory that I have never sold any of either one in three years of play. (I always use them for food.) Also, all my experience is that Cranberries, and Grapes grown from starters, always get Tiller. If I move a stack of starter-grown Grapes into a stack of foraged Grapes, however, the whole stack gets "IsSpawnedObject" in the save file, and none of those grapes get Tiller. Confirmed that all fruit tree fruits get Tiller. Confirmed that gifted fruits get Tiller. Butterbur (talk) 05:20, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Comment #4: Interesting about the isSpawnedObject flag on Blackberries (Salmonberries too I would expect), that they get Tiller if you pick them from bushes but don't if you get them off of the ground (after a squirrel or rabbit knocks them off the bush). HOWEVER, if you already have a stack of picked Blackberries in your inventory, and then go get a few off the ground, what is the result in your inventory? I'll bet I've done that, and that the ones on the ground are moved into the existing stack in inventory and thereby lose the isSpawnedObject flag, just as happens when merging stacks of differently-acquired Grapes. Of course, this works only on a per-stack basis, as different item qualities do not stack with each other or merge at all. Butterbur (talk) 06:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Comment #5: And now I reach the bottom of your text to find that my initial description is based on pre-v1.4 observations. I had not detected the code change in v1.4, despite having read the bug fix list. (Must have blipped that one.) But you have indeed confirmed that the bug I did object to has been fixed, and that my "exploit" has been retained, and that I no longer need to fuss with knowing which stack I ought to merge into. Simply merging will upgrade to Tiller if it's there at all. Thanks! And great thanks too for clearing up what the game really intends. That's certainly been something of a mystery to me all along, but at long last I see daylight in that clearing. :D Butterbur (talk) 07:11, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Some Verifications Regarding Tiller Still Needing to be Checked

  • Application of bonus to items grown in Garden Pots (especially Cactus and wild seeds).
  • Application of terminology to the text of various related articles, especially the use of terms for categories. This item may provoke discussion and stray beyond a strictly Tiller focus.

Having looked around the wiki, I find I have questions in a number of articles. Maybe many will be easy (I'll be exploring). At least one might not. That is the use of the term "crop" in the Farming article itself, and perhaps others.

Now that Nebulous Maestress has so neatly exposed the workings of the current game version (v1.4), I am struck with some more thoughts. First, "crops" is not the principal category around which farming and its Tiller profession revolve. In fact, it doesn't even appear there. And one thing that has always confused me is that the articles always assumed that it was, because that would be the intuitive approach. However, the game mechanics has many peculiarities as regards intuitions even now. To name a couple:

  1. When you till the ground on the farm, plant seeds, and water for a growth period, you would probably expect to get the benefit of the Tiller profession (the price bonus), once it is earned. Not so for Wild Seeds, Sweet Gem Berry, or Coffee Beans. Two of those items are even called "crops", but the bonus for growing crops does not apply to them.
  2. There are, of course, the forage plants that always get Tiller, whether foraged or not. And then there are those that get it only when grown (those are all fruits). But not all fruits can get it, even if grown (like Spice Berry and Wild Plum).

Begin to get the picture? Categories are not applied in an intuitive manner, and descriptions using category names can easily be confused with their intuitive, real-world meanings. Even worse, the differences between game definitions and intuitive meanings is complex enough to cause confusions even when textual distinctions are applied.

No doubt the workings of the game are designed for maintaining some balances in game play, and these complications are not necessarily to be considered bugs. Not our call anyway. But how to state things clearly on the wiki? It could be a bit of a conundrum.

For one thing, I think if you say "crop" it should at least mean all items identified as crops, including Sweet Gem Berry and Coffee Bean. Better, it might be extended to anything you plough ground for, whose seeds you plant, and whose plants you water. Maybe. Decisions, decisions.

What we do regarding "vegetable", "fruit", and "flower", I'm not even sure I know what to suggest in principle. We'll need to take that as we discover potential misstatements or obfuscations in the articles. Butterbur (talk) 19:36, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Having slept on some of this, I think maybe the best thing to do is to beg these questions (beg them to go away ;). We've got links all over the category names pointing to the strange game definitions. Readers may have to go digging to find out the details, but at least they are there. They may get confused if they don't dig, but that's going to be true in any case. I doubt that more careful words and explanations are going to help much. Let's see what readers' experience proves to be for a time, and if there's an identifiable solution to a problem, we can take it then. Butterbur (talk) 16:29, 10 September 2020 (UTC)